038 Transcript 

 

Morgan Evans:
It’s the Morgan Evans More or Less Pickleball Podcast coming at you in three, two, one. Boom! My guest today is one of the newest members of the Selkirk team, a pro that has set the benchmark for all else to strive towards. He’s a 12-time major champion. He’s an educator and on the nice bloke scale, he’s an 11 right up there with Glenn Peterson. Please welcome the legend that is, Wes Gabrielsen. Wes, how are you mate?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Good, how are you?

Morgan Evans:
I am very well, very well. So you’re on board. Good man. You’re with Team Selkirk. Couldn’t be happier for you.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I am enjoying it so far.

Morgan Evans:
Excellent. So far, so good. Obviously, you’ve had a storied career. I did give plenty of details in the intro, but for those players out there that are unaware of who you are, I like to tell people before Ben was Ben, there was you. Do you feel like that’s a fair comparison or am I shooting for the stars there?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I feel like I’ve always been a pretty humble human. I think you’re shooting for the stars. But I was blessed to start and play in an era where I had very, very good partners that carried me to a lot of success.

Morgan Evans:
I knew you would say something like that. Jeez. You’re kind of on the… Yeah, you and Glenn Peterson. You’re just too nice.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, he’s a good guy.

Morgan Evans:
No doubt about it. So tell me, how did you get started in pickleball? Obviously, you look like you’ve played a lot of tennis in your time. So it was a relatively easy transition, I’m sure but what kicked it off?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, I actually was introduced to pickleball when I was in middle school. In PE class, in middle school and high school, I played a bit but we had no concept of dinking or any of the strategy. We were playing with the wooden paddles and actually a Dura ball on a gym floor. So you can imagine how short those rallies were.

Morgan Evans:
Wow.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah. And then in college on rainy days, we would go [inaudible 00:02:16] the pickleball class because our tennis practice would be rescheduled to a different time. But I played the sport for quite a while and then I actually took a few years off. My good friend and former Mixed Doubles partner, Christine Barksdale, who’s a very good pro player, she was my USTA Mixed Doubles tennis partner. We were at an event and she said, “Hey, do you want to go try pickleball? Have you ever played before?” I gave her my backstory and the rest is history.

Morgan Evans:
That’s amazing. So what year was that?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, it was… We were actually down at Nationals for USTA, it was 2010. But I don’t think we actually played because of the rain, but I ended up playing the first time with her in 2011. January of 2011.

Morgan Evans:
Well, it was 10 years ago, jeez. That’s incredible.

Wes Gabrielsen:
It seems like 15.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, I can imagine. Who was the top dog at that particular time?

Wes Gabrielsen:
On the men’s side, there were two or three names that stood out. Actually the very first time that I played with Christine, we were playing Doubles up in Vancouver, Washington and I said, “Does anyone want to play Singles?” And everyone looked at me like it was crazy. They said, “No, but there’s this guy named Enrique that’s going to show up and he’d probably play you in Singles.” And it was Enrique Ruiz.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I think I played him six games and I didn’t win a point. I was hooked. He inspired me to switch hands because of the way he was playing.

Morgan Evans:
Were you playing right handed before or you just experimented with ambidextrous?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I was actually… In tennis, I served right handed and then I hit left handed. And you’re probably wondering, why did you serve left handed, because it’s such a weapon. But I played baseball right handed. So I threw right. It was natural. So I had ambidextrous tendencies already. But I just felt like I could cover more court in Singles if I switched hands.

Wes Gabrielsen:
So Enrique was really vital for me in terms of inspiring me to get better. He was definitely at the top. And then Tim Nelson was the young gun at the time that was kind of the man with the target on his back that everyone was trying to take down because he was so creative with how he played.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, he was one of the first guys. When I came in, it was 2014 when I first kind of played and I remember it was Redmond Senior Center up in Seattle. He would turn up once in a while and everyone’s, “Whoo! That guy.” At the time, I was getting schooled left right and center by Chris Miller and Brian Ashworth. I thought wow, how could anyone be better than these guys? And then Tim would turn up and make everyone look a little silly.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah. What was interesting about him, he’s a very smart human with a good court sense. But as you know, he’s got a very unique perspective on life and personality. I’m saying that in a politically safe way. Kylie Yates and I have talked about this before too, and some other guys.

Wes Gabrielsen:
He was kind of the young, the guy that was doing things differently, that was innovative with a shot making and I think without him, we probably wouldn’t see the transition to all of the trick shots. You think about your beautiful serve and others and shots like that, where he was kind of the creative’s genesis, I think, in the sport with shot making.

Morgan Evans:
Interesting.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah.

Morgan Evans:
Okay. All right, so we do have to play a little homage to the not just the Nasty Nielsen, but the rest of the Nielsen.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Exactly.

Morgan Evans:
Well, that’s important for people to hear because I don’t remember what it was like when there was just him and then you I suppose and Enrique, but watching him play, and then seeing you play, I remember, it was the first time in a tournament where I realized oh, my God, there is such a giant leap in levels of 5.0 pickleball.

Morgan Evans:
I think I was playing against you and Sarah Ansboury and I just… It was the first time ever I felt like I don’t think there’s anything I can do here if we’re just playing different sports right now and it could be years before I even figure out what it is that’s so different. But it was one of those eye opening experiences that I guess in not too dissimilar to when Enrique beat you six games straight, you went away and you were hooked. I felt the same way. I was just even more inspired to figure out this crazy game called pickleball.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Happy to provide the inspiration. Like I said, good partners help too. Sarah’s great player.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, I know for sure. It’s great to see her still around and yourself, you’re back in the game. But you did take a little bit of time off much like myself during COVID. Was it just time for a bit of a break? A good time for a break? Or were you playing it safe?

Wes Gabrielsen:
What’s interesting is I think just based on my job as a teacher and having a very unique year of we don’t know what’s going to happen next to kind of limited some travel for me, more so than normal. But also having some family members with some underlying health conditions.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I just felt like it was the right thing for me to do and not go play as much, stay a little bit closer to home. As a result of that, I actually feel like in the… I’ll say in 2020, I feel like I played more pickleball. I spent more time practicing on a court in 2020 than any other year I’ve played.

Morgan Evans:
Wow.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Because it was really kind of the only thing we were able to do for a long time besides golf.

Morgan Evans:
How’s your golf going?

Wes Gabrielsen:
My golf game, I don’t play as much as I’d like to. People ask me what my handicap is and I always say my golf game. But I’m okay. I play bogey golf. I enjoy it.

Morgan Evans:
All right. All right. That’s not bad. You were drilling much more so in 2020 than you had before. It looks like that’s kind of been a common theme amongst players during that COVID period and the level in which people have come back and we’re seeing at the moment is really representative of that. You’re sort of mid-30s, aren’t you?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, 35 right on the dot.

Morgan Evans:
35. Right on the dot. Very nice. I think you’re seeing what we’re all seeing that it’s less and less likely to see kind of 40+ players in the final of these tournaments these days. Does that worry you? Do you feel like it’s a step in the right direction for the sport or the fact that pickleball was always this very social inclusive kind of things and fun for young and old. Is it time? Have we reached that critical mass?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I feel like it’s good inspiration for us, veterans like yourself, and I, and people who are getting into the game that are 40+ and are playing pro, it’s good motivation to work harder to stay in that mental hunt. I understand the game is younger and faster. I think it’s great for the sport.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I’ve always been kind of have that blue collar mentality where each year even if I am winning a few tournaments or back when I met you, winning a lot of tournaments, I always wanted to get better. For me, it’s just part of the gradual progression of keeping myself in good shape and playing a lot to stay up to pace with the progression of the sport. I think it’s great. I think all the good young 20-year-olds in there are great for the sport.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, it’s certainly the what it looks like now compared to what it would look like when I first got in. It’s really apples and oranges. It’s wonderful. We all kind of wanted the game to grow and get better and more money to come in and now that it has and it’s growing like wildfire, I’m seeing a whole bunch of six foot three monsters out there that are progressively tougher to deal with. So there’s only so many times I can reinvent the serve and get away with some sneaky stuff. I feel like everyone just dial it back a little bit and perhaps there could be a selection committee of new players that can come in possibly.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, I will tell you when we played against each other, I think we played… It was three days in a row, in Newport Beach. We played rack and then we played in the men’s and then we played in the Mixed and you’re the only person in my 10-year pickleball career that’s ever not [inaudible 00:10:35] me with a serve.

Morgan Evans:
Okay. Well, I’ll take that.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I remember that, trying to short hop one of your serves and having it bounce through my legs and thinking, “I’m not going to do that again.” Kudos to you, my friend.

Morgan Evans:
Thank you. Thank you. Well, that brings up an interesting point as well. As we speak, the rules committee may very well be voting to either ban or allow a lot of these new wave of creative serving generally under the pretense that it is believed that it’s not in the spirit of the game for the serve to be used as a weapon.

Morgan Evans:
Now, you’ve had more experience than the vast majority of players in professional pickleball today. What do you think about that? Do you believe the serve should be able to be used as a weapon and bear in mind, we can edit this out.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, I’ve always felt like in Doubles, the serve has been a weapon with your directional selection, like where you’re going to put the ball depth, depth of the serve, Singles that I feel like people have put a little bit more power on their serve traditionally and we’re definitely seeing that carry over into Doubles the last few years.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Personally speaking, I don’t have any issue with some unique twists to serves. I think, again, going back to my mindset of always wanting a challenge and trying to improve, seeing your serve, for the first time seeing Zane serve. I know that Suzanne Barr’s son, Porter is flirting with the serve and it’s become a really dangerous weapon for him.

Wes Gabrielsen:
He’s already a solid player but just another weapon for him. I don’t mind the serve. I feel like it’s, again, for me a challenge to learn how to deal with it. I don’t have an issue with it. I feel like people can rise to the challenge and deal with it especially if it doesn’t go away.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, that’s fair. Do you think you’ll ever try and learn it?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I always come back each year into tournaments when I go into hibernation as I call it. I come back with some new funk and things I try and bring out. I definitely will try some things. I don’t know if I’ll use it, but I’ll flirt with it a little bit.

Morgan Evans:
Good man. Now that you’re on Team Selkirk, I can legally teach it to you. There you go.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I appreciate that.

Morgan Evans:
Just come down to the desert and we’ll click your fingers with me for a week and you’ll get it.

Wes Gabrielsen:
There we go.

Morgan Evans:
It’s time now for another episode of one of our new segments, One and a Half Cents. Dear Rules Committee, soon you will be asked to vote on a proposed rule change that will ban some or all techniques that create additional spin on the serve. As founder of one such technique in question, I believe I’m entitled to offer an opinion.

Morgan Evans:
What’s primarily in question is whether or not offensive serves are in the spirit of the game. It’s been three years since I started imparting spin on the ball toss, however only recently has the style gain notoriety. Largely due to the creative adaptation from fellow pro player, Zane Navratil, that incorporates the use of the paddle end or the paddle hand to provide a kind of pre-spin on the ball toss.

Morgan Evans:
Allow me to wind the clock back for a moment. One day, in the late ’90s, Lavon Major hopped the kitchen line, hit a volley and won the point. Soon Ernie Perry performed the same move in a tournament and the Ernie was born. When opposite Tyler Loong, we all fear the repercussions of an errant dink and I wouldn’t have it any other way because without the threat of The Ernie, players wouldn’t have learned how to defend against them, moves and countermoves. Lavon and Ernie changed the game, the game grew.

Morgan Evans:
Pickleball was born in the mid ’60s. You know what else started around then? The alley loop. The wild new way to score, hit the big time with Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain leading the charge. The technique is still used today but we don’t see it 10 times a game. Why? Because teams learned how to defend against it. The game grew.

Morgan Evans:
In 2016 [Marsan Repsinski 00:14:37] and myself invented The Shake and Bake. We were being out-dinked at the Lemaster Davidson classic and we needed a solution. After a couple of bottles of 5-hour ENERGY, we patented a new style of attack. In the following years, hundreds of players had to deal with Marsan crushing the line and poaching with deadly intent. You know what those opponents did? They got better, returns got deeper, players reacted faster, hit sharper volleys and successfully learned how to defend against the attack. The game grew.

Morgan Evans:
The return of serve is a skill and I believe we will stifle the development of that skill by taking away the most challenging serves. Necessity is the father of invention. These creative serves force players to improve their return skill. Dekel Bar can hit a serve faster than most people can pitch a baseball and his opponents have to learn how to deal with it. Power is a skill, spinning a ball is a skill, accuracy is a skill. No one has ever been told that [inaudible 00:15:36] can’t be a skill. Not one referee has ever given me so much as a warning.

Morgan Evans:
I’m not 220 pounds with the power of an Israeli demigod, but I’m good with my hands, so that’s what I use in order to compete in a rapidly deepening field. I believe that if the technique used is within the rules of the game, what difference should it make which skill is employed to make a serve better? If you ban one skill that makes a serve more offensive, under the pretense that the game wasn’t intended to have offensive serves, doesn’t it then stand to reason that you must ban any kind of offensive serve? Who wants to go down that road?

Morgan Evans:
There will be no serves with power, accuracy or spin. That doesn’t sound too fun does it? Imagine baseball without curveballs, imagine tennis without the kick serve, basketball without the loop. What if a technique was developed under the full rules of the game that allowed a player to serve at full speed with laser like accuracy? I imagine it would be pretty effective. Should we take that technique away as well?

Morgan Evans:
What do we all get asked? When is the sport going to be in the Olympics? Well, I would argue that an offensive sport is more popular and much more marketable than a defensive one. People don’t clamor to see Mayweather just duck and weave for 12 rounds and people aren’t on eBay buying tickets to the next NBA rebound championships.

Morgan Evans:
Let’s imagine this scenario, it’s the year 2032, we finally have flying cars, but the number one cause of death is flying cars. Pickleball is alive and well. 95% of professional pickleball players have either played ATP or WTA tennis or have been a pro player for more than 10 years. Ben Jones is approaching his mid 30s, but still looks 18 and the best players are making 100+K in every tournament with mainstream media embracing the sport.

Morgan Evans:
A scrappy but adorable Australian washes ashore, starts playing the game and develops a new way to serve well within the rules of the game. During tournaments, the serve is used and returned by essentially everybody who needs it. It’s 2032 and the skill level required to return the serve is possessed by all but a few, the game grew.

Morgan Evans:
In this scenario, would we need to ban the serve? No, it would only be seen as innovation because there’s no downside. It looks different, makes the game more interesting and is only slightly more challenging. Now, let’s consider another scenario. The year is once again 2032. It’s the 10 year anniversary of an important moment in the history of the game, the day the Rules Committee agreed to continue to allow one handed ball toss to impart spin.

Morgan Evans:
In the years after the serve was born, players adapted their return techniques and developed the skills to meet the demands, the game grew. I don’t think the problem is that the server’s not in the spirit of the game. It just came along too soon. If this serve was born 10 years from now, the spirit of the game wouldn’t be affected because everyone would be able to return it. This is a classic chicken in the egg scenario.

Morgan Evans:
Let’s not kill the egg before we meet the chicken. What’s been deemed as not in the spirit of the game is being labeled so not because of the action, but by the reaction. Not by the serve, but by the return. I present to you that it’s too early to understand the reaction. I can also attest that the chief proponents of this serve, myself and Zane Navratil, both report the same thing.

Morgan Evans:
The players that have the most experience returning the serves don’t have any problem getting it in. It’s not a matter of if people will be able to return these serves effectively, it’s just a matter of when. Each and every year, the bar is raised. There are moments, people, shots, plays that never were are suddenly born and once again, the game grows.

Morgan Evans:
This is one of those moments. I ask you kindly to allow the game to grow once more. Yours sincerely, Morgan Evans.

Morgan Evans:
That was some deep stuff there. Geez, I should probably put the pen down sometime, right? Now, we’ve talked a little bit about competition. I’m curious when was the first money tournament you played? When would you say it actually transitioned to what we broadly call professional pickleball today?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, for me and kind of looking back. I don’t know the first couple of nationals if they had prize money in those events, but for me, the first pro event I played in was the first tournament of champions, which was 2013 and actually in Ogden, Utah before those Brigham city courts were created.

Wes Gabrielsen:
It was actually an invitational tournament and when the draws were very small, and I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I can get some prize money to play pickleball? This is…” I was coming off of getting a free shirt and a paddle and I thought that was the most exciting thing ever.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I remember not everyone accepted the invite. For myself being new in the sport, it was kind of a free for all for the rest of us to sign up. They kind of took the first come first serve in that one and I ended up playing… I’m trying to think of who I played with. Justin Rogers, you remember Justin Rogers?

Morgan Evans:
Oh, yeah. Lefty, right?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah. So two lefties.

Morgan Evans:
Two lefties.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah.

Morgan Evans:
No wonder.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I think we ended up getting fourth in Doubles at TOC, the first one and then I played with Christine Barksdale and we got bronze. I ended up making some prize money or some money that week. So it was-

Morgan Evans:
25 bucks.

Wes Gabrielsen:
We might add a zero behind it. Maybe it was 250.

Morgan Evans:
Okay. That’s not bad.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, that was 2013. I think that was the first probably major pro tournament with more prize money than a Subway card for winning an event or something.

Morgan Evans:
Good stuff. It feels I like I’m closing my eyes and I’m transporting myself back to those times where, I don’t know, we were just figuring out the first iPhone or something like that.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Morgan Evans:
Different era. Young and impressionable, I’m sure. So there’s a lot of new players coming in. The game is growing like wildfire. As I said, it’s getting crazy how quickly we’re seeing new great players coming into the game. However, I’m sure yourself much like myself, we often see players who look physically like they’ve got everything required, the speed, the talent, agility. But when the tournament bell rings, something doesn’t quite add up and they struggle to kind of convert what looks to be a wealth of talent that should get them the gold or close to, but something about tournament pressure changes them.

Morgan Evans:
You’ve been competing at the highest level for a while longer than almost everybody. Do you have any kind of tips or advice? What do you think that it is that makes someone being able to compete well, as opposed to just be a great rec player?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Sure, I think I mean, this is going to sound simple, but tournament court time is really essential. I feel like you can be the world’s greatest rec player, like you said, and have great skills but if you don’t practice in a pressure-filled environment, whether it’s something you manufacture at home with the group or it’s just playing a few tournaments and getting your butt kicked to learn how to deal with different shots and scenarios and you’re not playing in front of 10 people at your home club, you’re playing in front of a thousand people under the lights at Nationals. I think court time is essential.

Wes Gabrielsen:
But also something that I preach a lot in my tennis coaching and pickleball coaching too is finding a reset mechanism because I feel like people get really frustrated when things aren’t going well for them. And in those big moments in tournaments when you’re competing against the best of the best, you got to have something that you tap into to relax you and get you back into your home court mentality where you can just relax and play your game.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Everyone has a different reset mechanism. For me, I actually and my tennis boys, when I was coaching high school tennis, used to laugh at me when we talked about this. They’d say, “Coach, what’s your reset mechanism?” And I said, “Guys, when I’m competing in a tennis match or a pickleball tournament and it’s a long point and the pressures on and I’m hitting 40 dinks back and forth with the great Morgan Evans cross court, I think about my favorite type of Thai food because I love and it makes me relax.”

Morgan Evans:
Really?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I do. Yes, I do. Everyone has something different.

Morgan Evans:
Interesting. Is it a Panang chicken curry?

Wes Gabrielsen:
No.

Morgan Evans:
I’m just curious.

Wes Gabrielsen:
It’s actually Tofu Pad Thai.

Morgan Evans:
Really?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah.

Morgan Evans:
That sounds very healthy. I had a lot of had a little Pad Thai in my time, but I never had the tofu. It always scared me.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, well, you get the right sauce then you can devour that gelatinous substance.

Morgan Evans:
My first time having tofu, I remember, I was visiting New York City for the first time ever and I think I was 14 or 15. And my parents let me off the hook and let me just wander the streets, probably a terrible idea. But I found one of those delis. And it was kind of like grab a little bowl, fill it up and it’ll be 9.95 or whatever.

Morgan Evans:
I had no idea what a lot of the things were. One thing, it looked like just cubes of chicken and I thought, “That looks pretty safe. I’ll mix it with this,” turns out to be tofu. And my life was never the same again. I’ve been afraid ever since.

Wes Gabrielsen:
No, it all makes sense, my friend.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, that’s completely changed tact from your incredibly insightful words of wisdom of finding your reset place and Tofu Pad Thai’s is Wes Gabrielsen’s happy place, I guess.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, it helps me hit a better backhand slice dank.

Morgan Evans:
So this is true, this is true. Okay. That brings up another point I’ve been meaning to talk to you about. We’ve seen over the last five, six years or so, the rise in people driving third balls from playing more aggressively in general. I’ve seen you drive a few.

Morgan Evans:
They come like laser beams once in a while, but generally tend to drop the third, nine times out of 10. Would that be fair to say?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I would say 99 times out of 100, yes.

Morgan Evans:
Okay. Yeah, it’s probably even better. Is that just something because you’ve historically always done that and you feel that’s just your most comfortable shot to play or do you feel like it’s just the best strategy, the vast majority of the time?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I think it’s both. I think it’s a comfort thing. It’s kind of been my bread and butter. Besides my backhand slice dink that’s kind of been the shot that I’m comfortable with. I practice the most, I feel like, it also sets my partner up the best, especially if I hit that cross court whether it’s from the use or the ad side or straight ahead, sometimes too.

Wes Gabrielsen:
But I feel like it’s very circumstantial as well. I think in Mixed, I will definitely drive the ball a lot more in Mixed on a third ball. That could be based on return location, it could be based on partner weakness on the other side of the net, if a player struggles with it, but it’s also… It depends on what my partner is comfortable with.

Wes Gabrielsen:
But I feel like in men’s Doubles predominantly, it is the best way for me to set up my partner. I have this habit recently of playing a lot with partners who are about 6’4 or 6’5. So I want to do anything I can to set them up.

Morgan Evans:
For quite some time, obviously playing with Marsan and I found I had a better chance to set him up by driving the third. But when I look back at it, thinking now, it was a bit more probably to do with the quality of my third shot drop not being quite, quite good enough. And then I think the fact that at that particular time, pre-shake and bake, there wasn’t a lot of people doing it.

Morgan Evans:
We kind of got away with it in a shock and all sort of scenario for a little while and then everyone sort of figured it out pretty quickly. And then yeah, moved, we had to kind of go back to basics again.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I remember being victimized by your Shake and Bake many times in some big tournament matches, specifically TOC, I think it was 2017 when you guys won it.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I think I was playing that year with Matt right, and I just remember going, “Wow, we’ve got to change something,” because you guys were just taking away everyone’s ability to play their game by using that style.

Morgan Evans:
Do you know how it started?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I don’t.

Morgan Evans:
It was because of Matt Goebel and Brent [inaudible 00:28:15]. Do you remember Brent [inaudible 00:28:17]?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I do.

Morgan Evans:
He hasn’t played much recently.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, I do.

Morgan Evans:
We all know Maddie, obviously.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah.

Morgan Evans:
We were playing the Lemaster Davidson Classic. We were getting out-dinked, left, right and center by [inaudible 00:28:27] and Goebel. It was a nightmare. This was out in Arizona. Luckily the rain, I think we were something like eight one down in the second and we were just murdered in the third and the first. So it wasn’t looking good. The rain came in. We sat down and I think we both had at least one 5-hour ENERGY because we just felt like we were struggling. That was our supplement of choice back then. It wasn’t smart.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Nice healthy choice. Yep.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, kids don’t do that. Anyway, for whatever reason we realized, all right, if we’re going to go out, we better go out swinging. We have got to change something. What about this, I’ll be on the left and any opportunity to drive the third, we’ll just try and play tennis and see if that works.

Morgan Evans:
I’ll try and rip it and you get in there and be the Polish monster and that time, I hadn’t called him Polish monster yet, but I was about to. Sure enough, all it did was stop them from being able to play their most comfortable game, took them out of that comfort zone and then we won I think three matches straight and it wasn’t until wind back and Oliver Strecker. Do you remember Olly?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I remember that tournament. I remember watching… Yeah, yeah. I remember that. Olly was great player.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, he was. It’s a shame we lost him. He was fun.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, he was great. Well, he had to go back to the homeland and live his life.

Morgan Evans:
Well, he could have lived it here. Someone would have sponsored him.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I know but his love was for Germany. He had to go back, I guess.

Morgan Evans:
It’s fair. It’s not a bad place to live. I have lived there for a little while and they are surprisingly nice people. All right, let’s move on just slightly. You’re obviously a teacher. I’m curious, what ages do you teach?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I teach high school and I’ve kind of taught the whole gamut of ninth grade, 10th grade, 11th and 12th. But this last year, I taught mostly US government. So it was a really good year to teach about government. A lot of good conversation. Mostly 17 and 18-year-olds.

Morgan Evans:
Okay. All right. Well, so those are minds that can actually give you some real conversation.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, especially this year with everything, the election. I’d say this year as in the school year, with the election, the insurrection, all that stuff happening, voter fraud claims. It was a lot of good conversation.

Morgan Evans:
Interesting. Okay. Well, I’m glad you’re at the helm there. Are you [inaudible 00:30:55] them into pickleball? Are you trying to insert some pickleball into their lives?

Wes Gabrielsen:
When I was coaching the high school tennis team here, on rainy days, we would play pickleball in the gym. Do you remember the young man, he’s about 20 now. Do you remember Will Gardner? He’s a Selkirk player?

Morgan Evans:
Oh, yeah.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah. Yeah. William was a player on my tennis team and actually was one of my assistant coaches the last couple of years, my main drill partner in pickleball, but because of his success at the junior level with pickleball, a lot of our tennis boys knew about pickleball because of Will and his success. A lot of those kids are starting to play more and more, which is fun to see.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah. So I actually got granted a leave of absence for one year from my teaching job. I’ve started to teach pickleball around here, just because as you know, it’s booming everywhere. More so I feel like during COVID than ever before, at least up here. I just looked at it and I went, “I’ve been teaching a lot, I enjoy it. I’m making some good money with it. Let me see if I can get a leave of absence approved and do this for a year and then just see what I think.”

Wes Gabrielsen:
So I’ve done some camps, and obviously a lot of privates. And then I’m going to play about one travel tournament a month. This will be the first time for me in my 10 years that I’m going to play year round in tournaments. I’m excited for it.

Morgan Evans:
Cool.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, it’s been a good summer. I’ve played about five tournaments. It’s been fun.

Morgan Evans:
Good, good. Tell me do you think Pickleball will kind of always be piggybacking off tennis or tennis technique? As long as tennis is bigger than pickleball, do you think we’ll always have crossovers or will the technique we see 100 years from now, 200 years from now be entirely different from kind of what we see at the moment whereby they very much look like they’re playing high level kind of close quarter Doubles with also some soft stuff.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I think we’re going to see the technique be similar. I think it’s going to be tennis-based. And this is no knock to people that come from other racquet sports. I might get myself in trouble here. I feel like at the pro level, when you look at the top 20-30 players on the men’s and women’s side. I feel like most of them have come from tennis. Would you agree with that assessment?

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Wes Gabrielsen:
There’s some badminton folks, there’s some table tennis folks, there’s some racquetball folks, but I feel like at the highest level, you’re going to see the technique taken directly from tennis technique. You mean, think about the way that you probably teach your pickleball lessons. There are a lot of crossover fundamentals that you teach in terms of body positioning and contact point and things like that that you would teach to someone in tennis, right?

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, yeah. I’m kind of going to hold judgment for a little while to see how well the Chinese and Japanese programs really progress because I think we’ll see just how well, very, very high level table tennis players and badminton players are able to come into the sport and I want to see what they can do because their wrist strength and flexibility and their ability to counter spin is second to none, really.

Morgan Evans:
I think, more importantly, the distances involved with a very high level table tennis player is not too dissimilar to be 14-feet apart that we have at the kitchen line. I’m very curious to see if the pure reaction speed advantage that the highest level table of tennis players should have over tennis players will make a big difference.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, I guess he didn’t really think about it. Not in terms of geography because I agree, those two… You mentioned China and Japan. Were those the two?

Morgan Evans:
Yeah.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah. I think those two nations obviously with their racquet sports, excellence just traditionally. It wouldn’t surprise me to see maybe like you said the tech technique, maybe carry over more from table tennis or maybe badminton. But I’d never really thought about the table tennis court or at least the positioning being comparable to the 14 feet. But that’s a great point.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah. Well, it’s actually something I thought of when you were talking earlier about your first experience, you were saying you were playing on a gym floor with a Dura ball and therefore the rallies weren’t lasting very long. I think the kind of speed you must have experienced is likely much higher than you would actually get these days in any tournament. Would that be fair?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah. And I think… Gosh, I don’t remember if Dura actually made an indoor ball for gym classes. I don’t think it was the same as the… Actually, it could have been the Dura Fast 40 now that I think about it. But I just remember, rallies and the pace of play being so much faster. I remember, it was so hard to score a point in Singles because the return was so devastating.

Wes Gabrielsen:
You just couldn’t pick that ball up if it was a deep return with that indoor Dura ball and that massive wooden paddle too that we all play with.

Morgan Evans:
See, I would wager that these are the very reasons why you got as good as you did, not to say wouldn’t have happened organically. But when you’re put in an environment that is forcing you to be faster than you would ever need to be inside the modern day, you can’t help but have your body developed around that speed or that distance.

Morgan Evans:
There’s a book called Bounce, it was similar to Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. Anyway, the author whose name escapes me, anyway, he was a Commonwealth table tennis champion, he was British gentlemen. As a child, the only place he had to play was a shed and there was no room to stand back from the table. He and a very high-level player would have to train without being able to take even one step back which means their reaction times developed around a shorter distance than what was actually possible and his hand speed, therefore, was arguably the best in the game at the time because he just got so used to being having to be faster.

Wes Gabrielsen:
What was the… The name of the book was Bounce, is that what you said?

Morgan Evans:
Bounce, yeah.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Okay. Yeah, that’s interesting. I’ve never really thought about when you’re asking about my game, I’ve never really thought about playing in that environment and how that impacted my development in the sport. But that’s interesting. I’ve always kind of contributed the hand speed for me and court coverage because I’m not the fastest person on the planet. I like to take big steps to cover the court. Which is also why I like my third ball drop to give me time to get in, as opposed to driving.

Wes Gabrielsen:
As our friend Brian Staub used to call it, to get the gunboats into the kitchen line that I have below my legs, it’s not an easy task. But I think I always kind of have thought about my progression as a result of other sports. I was a baseball player who played third base and always had to deal with vast ground balls. And so that helps your hand eye and your footwork and I was a soccer goalie, similar kind of frame and move then to Doubles tennis. That really helped me as I moved through the sports.

Morgan Evans:
Nice. Interesting. Have you ever thought about the fact that you being left handed gives you faster reactions?

Wes Gabrielsen:
I haven’t. Mm-mm (negative).

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, it’s a real thing. Apparently.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Really?

Morgan Evans:
It’s because the part of your brain that has to deal with that particular spatial reaction, I think it’s called, might be something different, but it is the right hand side of the brain for everybody, which has a direct link to your left side. For us, for right-handed players, it has to send that signal over to the left and then have it come over to the right. So it takes a little bit longer. So you have an advantage.

Wes Gabrielsen:
That’s interesting, just with the hemispheres of the brain, like you said, but something I know my mother always pointed out too. She said, I think your years of… I took piano lessons for a long time. I think that helped with the ambidexterity too, just as you advance through piano and you have to use both hands to move fluidly. I think that’s helped. I never really thought about that until she mentioned that a few years ago.

Morgan Evans:
Once in a while, I’ll play chess backwards. For some reason, after I kind of stopped playing golf a lot, I’ve picked up chess in a ridiculous fashion and to challenge myself, I’ll switch the board and try to play my pieces but from my opponents point of view and it’s a very weird sensation. But once you get used to it, you can kind of start recognizing how your brain is working differently.

Morgan Evans:
Chess is just great for your brain in general but I always play two or three games before I do these podcasts because it’s a good way to just kind of fire up the old synapses.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I like that.

Morgan Evans:
Give it a go. Why not?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah.

Morgan Evans:
Okay, now we’re on to the million dollar question and that you are, I think, acutely qualified to answer this one. What’s it going to take for someone to beat this Ben Jones bloke that everyone keeps going on about?

Wes Gabrielsen:
Youth and athleticism. No. I feel like…

Morgan Evans:
All right. So you and I, are done?

Wes Gabrielsen:
No, no, no, no. Never. We’re still in the 30-year-old club. I assume.

Morgan Evans:
I’m 39 mate. Jeez, I’m hanging on.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Even though in Newport I think you said, “You’re older than me, Wes, aren’t you?” I went, “Thanks, Morgan. I love you, my friend.”

Morgan Evans:
Yes, I apologize. Well, you’ve had gray in the beard for longer than me. I’ve got seven or 800 hairs but I just assumed.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, I’ll take that as a compliment. The grays been coming in since I was 18. But that’s genetics to thank for that. Yeah. I think you and I, we’re blessed amongst… It’s a bigger and bigger group of people that have played against Ben and know Ben personally. I think a lot of people in pickleball who don’t know, Ben, think about Ben and his incredible shot making ability because that’s what they see on camera or they see in person.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I feel like Ben’s greatest strength is his mind. I feel like his court IQ and his just ability to see angles and just how geometrical the right word is his game, I think that is his biggest strength and I think he is a major student of the game, even as he’s dominated the last couple years. He’s always looking to get better, physically, but more so mentally.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I think when you get a really high level, let’s say, ex-tennis player, pro tennis player, gets into pickleball, when they tap into that mental side that Ben has, then I think that would be the blueprint for beating him. Because those people coming from tennis have those physical skills already.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, for sure.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I don’t know if you agree with my assessment, but I feel like his mind is so much more of a weapon even than his amazing physical skills.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah. Look, you’re right. There are a lot of players on tour at the moment that physically look like they should have an advantage over him. But when it boils down to it, during the most pressure-full situations, what kind of shots selections you make and he has a way to force people to have to try to manufacture a shot that isn’t really there.

Morgan Evans:
Yes, it might look great on ESPN, if you pull it off but if you only pull it off one in three times, you’ve just lost two in four to Ben and Colin. Yeah, I think it just looks like whether it’s a war of attrition in a cross court dink or a hand speed battle, there needs to be someone that comes along that can not just be patient enough to play either one of those games, but obviously have the physical skills to clean up the mess when hits the fan, so to speak.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Yeah, I would agree. I think the other thing that he is so good at, not just his strategy and his mental toughness, but his focus level. He is a very fun, enjoyable person when we’re not playing tournaments. I’m not saying he’s not enjoyable when he plays tournament. But he is so focused. I’ve been able to play a couple tournaments with him. I think we played you and Tyson at the Triple Crown tournament. Remember that tournament down in…

Morgan Evans:
Oh, yeah. I do remember that.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I played with him the last day of that event, because I think we played one day with a different person. We played each day with a different person. We played two years in a row and I just was amazed at his focus level, his mental toughness and I always like to say, playing with him as a partner, it’s almost like you’re a hood ornament on a Lexus. You’re just there to support him as he’s doing most of the work.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, it is amazing how he does seem to play better with much more passive partners, someone who’s prepared to basically sit in the corner and let Ben do most of the work. But it’s not really a knock on anything but the dimensions of the court. Let’s be honest, we’re using a badminton court for a game that isn’t badminton and it’s no one’s fault that the team of Ben and Simone are that much better if Simone stays pretty close to that sideline.

Morgan Evans:
Ben uses the kind of power and wingspan he’s got to dominate the game. It’s only a 24 court and a young man can cover that. If it was 30, you would see a lot more chivalry. Unintended chivalry in Mixed Doubles.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Well, and I think that’s been… If you’ve talked to Simone about it, that’s probably been a bit of an adjustment because, she was used to… When you started playing and I had been playing for a while, when Simone got into the game, she was she still is an amazing player, obviously. But she was such a warrior who almost had to hit every ball. You think about Mixed and she could do that all day and be successful and won almost everything.

Wes Gabrielsen:
But now, it’s kind of been fun to watch. I’ve played them a couple of times with various partners by my side, but watching them and you’re not having to hit as many balls as before but when she’s given the opportunity, it’s lethal. She’s just almost priming to do something aggressively even with her first dink or first ball she hits.

Morgan Evans:
Yeah, certainly I had her on the podcast a couple of months ago. I asked her how she feels about this. The certain percentage of players out there, well, general public that look at how they play and think, “That’s not fair. You’ve got to let her play.” She is completely okay with it and loves the fact that he can take over so much of the court and win because it allows her to be fresher for her women’s Doubles, where she certainly will have to do more work and potentially Singles. It’s a business. It’s both a game, it’s entertainment, it’s a sport, but it is a business at the professional level and she can certainly see the forest through the trees.

Wes Gabrielsen:
You took the words right out of my mouth, I was going to talk about body preservation, how she probably appreciates that and she’s got more energy to play those other events that you mentioned. What’s amazing to me is I get asked this question a lot by higher level tennis players in our area who come into pickleball and they look at Ben and Simone play Mixed.

Wes Gabrielsen:
A lot of people think, men, think I need to take that much court and hit that many balls in Mixed and I go, “No, that’s an exception.” I said, I feel like the best. And I’m going to leave names out. Forgive me if I do. But I look at the people like Ben, obviously, I look at Matt Right, I look at Riley Newman, amongst others, that they are some of the most successful male Mixed players on the tours, I should say, because of their body positioning, not necessarily them taking every ball.

Wes Gabrielsen:
I think that’s the biggest mistake that men’s pro players make in Mixed or anyone in general, is it’s one thing to insert yourself and make yourself feel known on that court by your opponents, but are you going to take the ball at the right time? Because I see sometimes people take too many dinks from their partner and it disrupts the flow of that team. And so many of the top females in pickleball can hit behind the guy cross court for a winner.

Wes Gabrielsen:
That’s why I mentioned those three guys and there’s plenty of others that are the best at inserting themselves and then picking the right moments to attack.

Morgan Evans:
I think you’re exactly right. The temptation for anyone who goes into the ladies perceived territory is to, “Well, I’m here now I better attack and go full Tarzan.” And I think it’s a sign of a great Mixed player that can go over there, realize, “All right, this shots not actually here, I’ll just feed the ball behind the other player and I’ll get back into a slightly more neutral position,” and not necessarily needing to beat their chest on every single poach.

Morgan Evans:
Wow, Wes Gabrielsen, this has been an honor and a privilege, man. I feel like we’ve got almost everything done but we could probably go for another four or five hours. I’m sure you’re a busy man, so I will let you go. But thank you so much for your time mate.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Hey, thanks for having me. It’s great to chat with you, my friend. We don’t get to see each other very often. Even hearing your voices is a wonderful thing these days.

Morgan Evans:
You’re so sweet. All right. You take care of yourself and we will see you at the next tournament.

Wes Gabrielsen:
Okay, thank you. Bye-bye.

Morgan Evans:
Take care mate. This podcast was powered by Selkirk. This podcast is also brought to you by the next generation of Selkirk paddle, The Vanguard. Well, folks, that’s all we’ve got time for. I hope you enjoyed the episode. As always, I’m Morgan Evans and this has been More or Less Pickleball. I think he’s joined a dolphin commune and he’s with the fishes.